文 | Ivy Zeng 营销在过去6，7个月时间里发生的变化，甚至远超过去7年。其中最为典型的，疫情过后，消费者对于环保的态度和看法，发生了翻天覆地的变化。 “消费者已经意识到个人健康和地球健康两者是紧密相联的，因为人类离不开地球。所以可持续性发展、平等、包容这样的话题，对于未来的市场营销和品牌建设将来越来越重要” ——宝洁全球护肤与个护品类董事长兼总裁石拓培先生（Markus Strobel）如是说。 “消费者渴望最安全、最有效的成分，希望购买的产品不会对自己、家人或社区造成任何不良影响，更重要的是，他们希望这些产品能够产生积极正面的影响。但天然成分，并不一定是安全的。有机成分实际上并不一定是可持续的。环保并不等于高品质，高效用，类天然成分可能比纯天然成分更具有可持续性。” 显然，采取纯天然成分并不一定环保，但换个思路，比如提供补充装产品就能很大程度上减少生产外包装时对地球造成的污染。 基于此，宝洁全球美尚事业部从企业社会责任、产品对于自然的可持续性发展层面，做出了改变，他们设立了一系列全新的标准，打造绿色工厂，进行包装创新、产品创新和健康教育。正如Markus Strobel所说 “我们正在充分把握契机，将我们对于科学技术的深刻理解与对于自然环境的最佳理解相结合，造福人类和地球”。 事实上，企业要应对的变革远远不是只有消费者对于环保的态度变化这么简单，媒体环境变得日益数字化，人们对产品的期望在变，不同时代的消费者的喜好也在变。企业想要生存，想要发展，只能以不断地变化来应对日益复杂多变的市场环境。 近期，Morketing 创始人兼主编曾巧与宝洁全球护肤与个护品类董事长兼总裁石拓培先生（Markus Strobel）进行了一次对话，希望透过作为超大型企业的宝洁应对不断变化市场的经验与方法，为读者带来更多的启发。 宝洁全球护肤与个护品类董事长兼总裁石拓培 以下为对话实录: 01.后疫情时代，市场营销环境的3大变化 Morketing曾巧：受疫情的影响，宝洁与消费者进行多元化沟通的方式，从创意、内容到媒介，相比以往发生了哪些区别或者变化？具体来看，中国市场与美国市场变化的相似性和差异性体现在哪些方面？ 宝洁Markus: 很明显，过去的六个月、七个月里所发生的变化比过去六七年里发生的变化还要多。在市场营销方面，主要有几个变化，并且全世界都是如此。 其中一个变化就是，媒体和市场格局发生了变化，一切都变得彻底数字化了，一切都开始远程了，世界各地都在建立新的营销模式。在中国，本来媒体就已经非常发达了，但我们又看到了直播带货的兴起。当然，以前也有直播带货 ，但现在直播带货明显占据了主导地位。直播带货在某些品类中的销售占比，已经达到50%-60%，这是我们都要面对的新现象，我们都需要接受并利用这个新的现象，而且我们需要从中做出创新，这一点很重要！总结来说，就是媒体的格局发了改变。 另外，人们对产品的期望也发生了变化。人们的要求在上升。疫情期间，人们更加需要值得他们信任的产品和有效的产品。因此，对产品质量和产品性能的需求开始急剧上升。所以我们必须在质量和性能上加大投入，让产品越来越好，这个也尤为重要。 最后，消费者已经意识到个人健康和地球健康两者是紧密相联的，因为人类离不开地球。所以可持续性发展、平等、包容这样的话题，对于未来的市场营销和品牌建设将来越来越重要。 这就是在疫情发生后我所看到的3大趋势。 Changes in the post pandemic period I think they have, obviously, in the last six months, seven months, more changes than sometimes happen in six or seven years. So I think in the marketing community, there are a couple of them. And this is all around the world. One of it is the whole media and go to market landscape has changed, where everything has become fully digital, everything has become remote. And there has been new marketing models being built all around the world. In China the media was already very evolved. What you see now is the whole emergence of live streaming. I mean live streaming was there before. But now live streaming is dominant. It makes in some categories, makes up 50% to 60% of the growth of the category. So this is the new phenomenon that we are all dealing with, that we all need to work with and where we need to innovate in. So that's an important one. Media landscape has changed. What has also changed is what people expect from their product. I think the bar is going up. People during the pandemic, they really want their products they trust and products that work. So the quality of the products, the performance of the products, the need for that has gone up dramatically. So I think you've got to invest more and more in quality and in performance and making your products better and better. This is extremely important. And finally, I think what consumers have realized there is a connection between their individual health and the health of the planet. So I think topics like sustainability, equality, inclusion are going to be more and more important for the marketing, for the branding of the future. So these are the three big trends that I'm seeing coming out of this. Morketing曾巧：受疫情的冲击，很多消费品类在今年的销量受到影响，很多品牌通过减员等压缩成本。那么，在这种情况下，宝洁在护肤和个护品类是否业绩下滑或者实现增长？ 宝洁Markus：从半个月前，刚刚举行的财报会议来看，宝洁在今年上半年的表现非常强劲，今年的业绩会非常不错。这次疫情对我们来说既是挑战也是机遇，我们看到疫情使得全民的健康意识显著增强，人们的健康消费也随之大幅提升。洗护、清洁类生活用品的需求量成指数级增长。因为对人们来说，保持自身清洁、保持房屋干净变得尤为重要。 宝洁作为一家日用品消费公司，为消费者提供每天必需的卫生护理、个人清洁等用品，所以我认为我们的销售表现会很好。 另外，我们的护肤产品在上半年也有不错的表现，尤其是在中国。因为我们也相信，人们对优质护肤产品的需求在不断上升。比如高端和超高端的产品组合SK-II。还有Olay，在过去的5-6年里，我们已经把它从一个大众品牌变成了一个入门级的顶级品牌。在新品和产品创新方面，我们也一直在进步。而且，还有很多令人兴奋的新品牌，比如急救美人（FAB）、雪果（SNOWBERRY）——我们正在把这些品牌引入中国。整体来讲，我对护肤产品的未来很乐观。
Yes, the growth of P&G, that's kind of we just had a quarterly earnings call two days ago. So you've seen that we had a very strong starting for the year. So I think we will have overall a good year. There are challenges. But I think what's become more and more important for people in the pandemic and after are health and hygiene products, health products, hygiene products, cleaning products, because it's really important for people to keep themselves clean, keep their houses clean. So that standard on hygiene has gone up. And since we provide quite a lot of products in that space, I think we will be doing well, we have the right portfolio for this stage. And I also think in our skin care business is off to a good start. We have been doing well, especially in China. Because we also believe that what we're seeing in skin care is that the need for premium products is going up and up. If you look at our portfolio or brand like SK-II has always been premium, very highly priced, then SK-II is really on a good development. Olay, in the last five to six years, we have turned this from a more mass brand into an entry prestige brand. We've been up, up, up in terms of for new products, product innovations. So I think we're going to be fine there too. And we have a lot of exciting new brands First Aid Beauty, Snowberry that we're bringing to China now. So I'm optimistic about skin care. 02.品牌运营原则的三点不变，其他进行建设性颠覆 Morketing曾巧：您刚才提到令您兴奋的新品牌急救美人等，而且宝洁在加强引入新品牌。其实我也观察到，特别是在今年，中国市场出现了一群新消费品牌，专注于一个细分领域的挖掘，并在产品、营销、概念等方面各自创新，打破了大家对这些细分市场产品的固有印象，并快速聚拢了一批用户，您认为产生这类现象的本质原因是什么？对于这些新消费品牌的未来您怎么看？ 宝洁Markus：中国市场恢复得非常好，市场上有很多的品牌。在中国，仅在护肤领域就有5000多个品牌，所以竞争其实非常激烈。每天都会有新的品牌出现，但我个人从来没有从新品牌和老品牌这个维度考虑过，我也没考虑过小品牌和大品牌的维度。我认为，只有了解消费者的品牌，和不了解消费者的品牌；或者说，有目标的品牌，和没有目标的品牌。 如果这样看的话，你就会发现，作为大品牌，我们必须像小品牌一样思考。我们必须非常、非常接近我们的消费者，才能真正了解我们的消费者，了解他们想要什么、了解他们对什么感兴趣、了解他们的生活。只有这样做了，我们才能比小品牌或新品牌做得更好。 这也是宝洁努力的方向，这也是推动创新的基础。所以，成功的秘诀就是要真正接近消费者，并从人性的层面去理解消费者，了解什么能打动他们，从而按照消费者需要的方向快速推动创新。 You mentioned there is a lot going on in the market. The China market has recovered very well. And there are a lot of brands in the market. In China, in skin care， today you have 5000+ brands out there. So that's a highly competitive situation. And there are new brands every day, however, I personally never think in the dimension of new brand, old brand. And I don't think the dimension of small brand, big brand; the one dimension or the two dimensions, I think about a brand who understands the consumer and the brand who does not understand their consumer; a brand that has a purpose, a brand that has not has a purpose. So if you take these criteria, you're going to find out that as big brands, we have to act like small brands. You have to be very very close to our consumers to really understand what our consumers want, what inspires them, really understand their life also outside of the specific product category. Because if we do that, we're going to understand our consumers just as well, or even better than the smaller brand and the newer brands. That is kind of what we do. And this is kind of what gives us then the ground for innovation that we got to drive. So that's, I think, the secret of the success. And the main insight is to really be close to the consumer and understand the consumer on the human level. Really what makes them tick and then drive innovation to go faster where the consumer wants to go. Morketing曾巧：宝洁旗下个护和护肤品牌的营销的关键核心是什么？为什么？ 宝洁Markus：面对变化的洞察力，我想我能给到最好的建议就是做一个推动改变的人，而不是一个抵制改变的人。如果你看到市场正在发生变化，你就必须努力推动这个变化。你必须走在变革的前面。 举个例子，我通常称之为“建设性颠覆”。我负责SK-II品牌很多年了，基本上来说，其品牌运营的原则非常简单，我只要求有3点不做改变。第一个是我们的明星产品——“神仙水”；第二个是我们的成分——PITERA；第三个是我们的目标群体，也就是我们所说的年轻人群。 这三点保持不变。其他的一切每年都会发生巨大的变化。所以SK-II一直处于一种持续的再创造和颠覆的状态中，只要保持上面所说的三点不变就行。 Insights in the face of changes, I think the best advice I would have is to be the one driving the change and not be the one resisting changing. If you see a change going on in the market, you've got to drive it. And you've got to get ahead of this change. I give you one example, and I call this usually a constructive disruption. And I have been running the SK-II brand personally for many years. And basically, the principle on which the brand is run is very simple. There are three things that we don't change. One is the hero product that is the facial treatment essence. The second one is the ingredient PITERA, the magical, onerous ingredient. And the 3rd one is our target group. And it's what we call young executives, young people. These three stay the same. Everything else can change dramatically every year. So the brand is in a continuous state of re-invention and disruption because the people working on brand have freedom to change that and disruptive as long as they stay to the three things. What I see in a lot of existing brands, they put too many limitations on themselves. They say, look, this is part of my brand. This is part of my brand, and this. And then it always stays the same. You've got to have some part stay the same. But you've got to define them very sharply. And the rest you got to disrupt. And disruptions are happening faster and faster. It's the whole mind-set and attitude how you look at brand building. Morketing曾巧：其实在我思考，宝洁作为一个百年品牌，如此庞大的体系，要做到引领改变是非常难的，因为从组织架构层面就比较费劲，那么，宝洁如何做到以及它在一些具化操作中怎么可以一直保持引领改变这件事情？ 宝洁Markus：对于这个问题我有两个想法。首先，作为一家企业，在过去的几年里，我们做了很多组织上的改变和调整——我们在努力变得更敏捷，更接近消费者，把决策权交给最接近消费者的人。 这点非常非常重要。在我的决策层面，我从未感到太多的压力。没有人过来对我说，我应该怎么做。他们会说，你的业务你最懂。你可以描绘你想要实现的目标，之后你可以做任何你认为正确的事。 在过去的几年里，特别是在中国，我们对中国的管理也相对比较去中心化。我们在中国找到了合适的人才，投入了更多的资源，还有很多正在进行的研发项目，中国业务人员都在中国，而不是在美国的某个地方。但我们完全把权力下放给中国当地的员工，并且让他们参与到营销计划的决策中来，这样才能保证创造出中国消费者需要的产品，才能最终让中国消费者满意。 因为你也知道，中国最明显的一个特点就是“中国速度”。在中国，事情发生的速度就是那么快，所以你要授权给员工，让他们来做决策，从而快速推动业务的发展。我认为，这是大企业推动变革的关键因素。 I think I have two thoughts on that. But number one, as a company, we have done a lot of organizational changes and interventions in the last couple of years; how to become much more agile and work much closer to the consumer and give the decision making power to the people that are closest to the consumer. I think that's very, very important. In my business, I don't feel much pressure. Nobody telling me what to do. They say you know your business. You can deliver your objective to do it. And then we can do whatever is right. I think this comes especially when it comes to China in the last couple of years. We're not trying to run China very much centrally. But we've put the right people into China. We put more resources into China. We have a lot of research in development. People now sitting in China and not somewhere in America. And we have to empower the local organizations, to really create the products that they need to keep the consumer happy, run with the marketing programs. Because if you think about it, there's one thing which is so unique about China. That's the China's speed. The famous China's speed, things happen just so much faster. So you got to empower the people on the ground to make the right decisions to drive the business within the framework. And I think this is the key enabler of making a big company drive change. Morketing曾巧：那么，第二呢？ 宝洁Markus：第二，我想说的是，企业的“大”，从某种意义上来说并不是坏事。因为如果你是大公司，你就会拥有很多资源，你可以利用这些资源，更快地推动变革。如果是一家小公司，那可能你经常要犯愁为下周的运营筹集资金。但如果是一家大公司，我有这么多资源可以利用，这可以在可持续发展项目和包容性项目上做很多贡献。我们的美尚部门，有数千名科学家，有几百名博士。我们有大量的知识储备。所以，只要我们愿意，只要我们赋予人们这样做的权力，我们就可以推动改变。 And the second one if you allow me that one is big. It is not bad in that sense. Because if you are big, you have a lot of resources, and you can bring these resources and drive change much faster. If I'm a small company, often I don't know how to finance my operations for the next week. But if I'm a big company, I have all these resources. We have been doing a lot of interventions at the moment on our sustainability programs, on our inclusion programs. And we have in our beauty care division; we have thousands of scientists. We have hundreds of PhDs. We have all this knowledge, so we can drive that change if we want, if we empower the people to do it. 03.保持年轻，无惧年龄 Morketing 曾巧：您在前面的问题中强调，宝洁有3点不变，其中第三点“目标群体-年轻人”，那么，宝洁如何让品牌保持年轻？能否分享一个具体案例？ 宝洁Markus：大体来讲，我们有很多很酷的产品，在中国新推出的高端护发产品，表现都非常棒。从个例来看，在过去5年左右的时间里，我们对Olay的品牌做了最大的转变。Olay在4、5年前一直被视为妈妈的品牌，完全和名牌不沾边。如今，我们刚刚推出了一款Olay的新品——纯璨晶透系列“流光瓶”，售价约为400元，这个价格对于Olay来说是很高的了，这是一款包装精美的产品，因为产品的差异，我们由此改变了广告和目标群体。 之前我们说的是——Olay，帮你消除皱纹的护肤品。而现在我们说的是——无惧年龄。任何年龄，你都可以是最好的你。把这些和创新结合在一起，如果你再看几年前的Olay，你会发现，哇，这几乎是一个完全不同的品牌。唯一不变的是，它仍然叫Olay。它仍然可以改善皮肤，让你的皮肤可以焕发新生。 I think we have lots of cool products. If you just look and Rene can even show that to you, I guess. If you look at our new premium hair care products in China, they look really amazing. And they're really cool. We had probably the most remarkable transformation on a brand we have done in the last five years or so on Olay. Olay perceived 45 years ago as a bit of a mother's brand, and not a prestigious brand. Now today we have just launched an Olay product that sells for 400 RMB, which is very high for Olay, which is called Olay Pureset. And it's an amazing product with amazing packaging. And we also have changed the advertising and the target group. Before that we said, this is a product that takes away your wrinkles. Now we talk about the fearless Olay woman, fearless of age. At any age, you're going to be your personal best and you're going to do amazing things. And you bring this together with the innovation. You're offset a brand if you look at the brand few years ago. If you look at the brand, now you're going to say, wow, this is almost like a different brand. The only thing that's still constant is it's still called Olay. And it still does amazing things to your skin. And I can be there at the testimonial of that. Morketing曾巧：品牌营销最终的2个结果，一个是传递品牌价值，一个是获得品牌销量。品牌在营销的过程中，过于追求价值不看重效果和过于看重效果不注重品牌，最终产生的结果也许都会很糟糕，所以我们应该如何思考、平衡品牌价值传递和品牌效果之间的关系？ 宝洁Markus：我想这对很多品牌来说都是一个巨大的挑战，当然对我们来说也是个很大的挑战。 一方面，就是你所说的业绩导向的品牌营销，他们擅长把每个联系、每个接触，都转化为销售。但他们大都不擅长品牌建设，不擅长长期品牌建设。还有一些品牌在长期品牌建设方面做得很好，但对将品牌建设转化为具体的销售业务，则做得还不够好。 很少有品牌在这两个方面都做得同样优秀。这也正是我们一直以一种高度紧迫感在进行的工作，力求实现品效合一的目标。如果能让每个销售转换都变成品牌建设的一部分，那对于我们达成品效合一的目标将会非常有帮助。 例如，我们正在做自己的直播带货。在一些国家，我们会请到科学家通过直播对产品进行解释。他们可以解释我们的产品有哪些功效，里面有哪些成分，以及我们做了哪些处理等等。所以，我们正在通过科学家努力构建品牌的同时，也在尝试推动转化的发生。 我们做了很多尝试，就是努力想把两者结合起来。但我认为这将是未来很重要的一个挑战。因为我相信即使在业绩导向的模式下，品牌建设也永远不会过时。很多研究和文献都表明，品牌资产、品牌价值和销售之间，长期来看，有明显的相关性。短期的话，这种相关性可能会因为促销手段和转换的增长而减弱；但长期来看，一定是品牌的实力和品牌的渴望决定了品牌长久的成功。我坚信这一点！ Yeah, I think I have to say this is something that's a big challenge for many brands. It's also big challenge for us, because on the one hand, you have what you call the performance marketing brands, who are really good at putting every contact into conversion cost per contact, conversion sales. That's the language. But they're often not very good in brand building, in long-term brand building. And then you have other brands that are very good in long-term brand building, but are not yet good in turning their brand building into concrete sales and conversion. So there are very few examples of brands that are equally good in both of these spaces. And this is something that we are working on with a high sense of urgency to really combine the brand building and the conversion part of it; if you can make every conversion point, a brand building point, I think that's something that could be extremely helpful for us. For example, if we do some of our own live streams, and we are experimenting with them. And in some countries where we then have one of our scientists will live stream and explain the product. And they explain what the product does and what ingredients we put in there and the care we put in there. So we're building the equity of the brand with our own scientists while at the same time driving conversion. So that's an experiment that we're doing. We're doing a lot of experiments to bring this together. But I think it's going to be one of the key challenges in the future to be able to do that. Because I believe even in a conversion led model, brand building will never go out of style. And if you look really at the research and the literature, you will always see long term, a very clear correlation between your brand equity, the value of your brand, and sales. Short term that can change, promotions and conversion, long term it's always the strength and the desirability of the brand that drives the long-term success of the brand. And I may be old fashioned. But that's what I still believe. 04.企业社会责任，最重要是创造一个持久的框架 Morketing曾巧：在我认为，品牌建设中很重要的一个事情是“承担社会责任”，我们看到宝洁在今年疫情特殊情况下，也一直在做很多社会公益，那么，宝洁是怎么思考“一个企业的社会责任”这件事情？以及怎么做的？ 宝洁Markus：社会责任最重要的一点就是创造，创造一个持久的框架，从而为你每天的行动提供动力。所谓的可持续发展，不是说你周五下午有空了，去做一下，周五下午很忙，你就不做了，企业的社会责任不是这样的。企业的社会责任需要嵌入到你整个业务的驱动力里面去。所以宝洁美尚事业部启动了一个名为“尽责尽美”的项目。该项目就包含了几个我们最为坚持的原则。 首先，是安全原则。180多年来，保障产品安全一直是宝洁的核心所在，美尚事业部采用严苛的科学安全标准，高于众多独立监管机构的要求，确保所有产品安全可靠；其二，品质与效用原则，宝洁美尚事业部致力于研制拥有净正面效益，有助于资源保护或资源可再生的产品成分，并将其作为公司的长期目标；其三，可持续性原则，宝洁美尚事业部将要求所有合作伙伴都严格遵守宝洁设定的高标准，以负责任的方式使用资源，保护环境，承担社会责任以及在生产运营过程中减少碳足迹；其四，平等与包容原则，宝洁美尚事业部将充分利用其在全球的媒体资源，努力打破偏见，在世界各地促进多样性、包容性和区域平等；最后，则是透明性原则，将会始终坚守诚实、透明及负责的原则，致力于以清晰、可靠的方式，为消费者提供关于产品、成分和研发进展等方面的信息。 这就是我们设定的框架，由这个框架来指导我们的行动。所以就算你在半夜突袭宝洁美尚事业部的某个人，他肯定可以毫不犹豫地告诉你我们的五个原则是安全、品质与效用、可持续性、平等与包容、透明性。这是每天指导我们行动的基本框架。我们坚信，可以把它变成一个长期的坚持，而不是短期的利己行为。 I think the major thing in terms of responsibility is to create something, create a framework that is long lasting and that can drive your actions everyday because responsibility, sustainability, that's not something you do on a Friday afternoon. When you have a busy work week on a Friday afternoon, you have some time and you do CSR, that's not how this is going to work. CSR needs to drive your total business. So what we have done on beauty, we have created a framework that we call Responsible Beauty. How can we be a responsible manufacturer? It not only has one aspect, it has 5 aspects. Quality. The safety of our products. That's of paramount importance. Sustainability, obviously, the sustainability of our supply chain, the ingredients we put into our products, the sourcing of our ingredients, how we produce all these things. Transparency, because if I can tell you about one thing about younger people, the famous generation, is that what they demand is transparent, they don't want to have any secrets from brands. So we want to be completely transparent. And the 5th one is equality and inclusion. I think it's absolutely important that the equality and inclusion is not only how we deal with the employees. It's how we deal with the suppliers; our suppliers, would they practice equality and inclusion. That's really important. So we have this whole framework that guide our actions. So if you wake somebody up in P&G beauty in the middle of the night, they will be able to tell you quality performance, safety, sustainability, transparency, equality and inclusion. And that guides everybody's actions everyday. So that's how we think we can make this a long-term play for us versus short-term activism. Morketing曾巧：由于疫情环境，你认为在营销或品牌层面上关于宝洁有什么困惑与挑战? 宝洁Markus：有一个好事，那就是我晚上睡的特别好。如果晚上有刮风下雨打雷什么的——声音特别大的那种，第二天早上，我妻子问我有没有听到，我总会说，我一点也没听到。 但是说真的，如果说有什么让我困惑的话，就是经营业务的实践、营销以及类似的运营，遵循的就是很少的那几样基本原则。所以你必须要经常对这些原则进行新的诠释，但实际上它们并没有那么复杂。 我发现现在有太多的术语了，品牌目的、品牌使命、品牌愿景，品牌这个、品牌那个，以至于，你眼里全是树木，却看不到整个森林。 即使在今天，新的科技是那么美好。我们有人工智能、区块链、神经网络等等。但很多时候，看到科技的出现，并不意味着我们也能看到它背后的本质——从人性的角度去理解消费者。很多时候我们做得不够好是因为我们被其他事物分散了注意力，所以最为重要的是“不要被无关紧要的事物分散注意力，要时刻保持对重要事情的关注”。 去年，我讨论过一个议题“数字化足够人性化吗”。我们有电商、有各种算法、有人工智能、有区块链。所有这些让人眼花缭乱的技术，人性化的成分在哪儿？我们的品牌真的足够人性化吗？我们与消费者的联系是在人性化的层面上吗？尤其是现在，在疫情发生后，人与人之间的连接比以往任何时候都更加重要了。 如果营销从业者能够明白这一点并能加以利用，那他们一定会很成功。 There's one thing, which is good, I have a very deep sleep. When there's a thunderstorm at night and it's very loud. And my wife asked me the next morning, have you heard that? I said, I have not heard anything. But now, seriously, what would keep me up if I were sleepless is I just believe that the whole practice of running a business, of marketing and everything like this follows very few fundamental principles, that you always need to reinterpret, but it's not that dramatically complicated. And what I see today and I also made some remarks in my presentation when we talked about the brand division, because there's so much jargon out there, brand purpose, brand mission, brand vision, brand this, brand that, that sometimes you don't see the forest because of the trees. And even today, like technology is wonderful. We have AI and block chain and neurological networks and everything. And very often that does not make us see what it's all about. And this is the individual consumer as a person that we need to understand at the human level. Very often we are not doing this well enough because we're getting distracted by everything else, like not to be distracted to focus on what matters is important. I spoke last year in Shanghai at the digital marketing conference in December, which is still alive, which was good. My topic was is digital human. We have all the digital tools. We can measure anything. We can analyse everything. But are we focused on humans? And especially now, I think even after the pandemic, the human connection is more important than ever. And if marketing people understand that and can leverage it, I think they will succeed. Morketing曾巧：怎么看待当下中国营销的水平? 宝洁Markus：在很多方面，中国的营销其实是世界领先的——尤其是在数字生态系统方面、和涉及到新鲜事物的时候。我一直在和北美的同事强调，多看看中国现在在做什么。你们应该从中国现在正在做的事情中得到启发，这也正说明了中国为世界所带来的影响。 而且与其他国家相比，这种影响让中国的品牌建设能力变得更加强大。但如果中国能从北美和欧洲的营销中得到启发，并把这些启发与对数据和数字的利用结合起来，再加上中国速度，那我想中国甚至可以在任何方面都引领世界。 我们一直在努力让宝洁的业务从中国得到启发。但我觉得，中国也可以从国外的许多经验中得到启发，以帮助中国的市场营销和品牌建设变得更加强大。双方应该是一种共生共存的关系。 I think in a lot of aspects, in a lot of aspects, Chinese marketing is leading the world, especially when it comes to digital ecosystem, when it comes to this need of doing something new. I tell a lot of my people in North America at the moment, look for China's doing. Right? You should be inspired about what China's doing. I think it's all about the inspiration of what China is doing. But I think what would make the China brand building even stronger is the same inspiration than from other countries. But if you and China, can be inspired from for marketing that's done in North America, the marketing done in Europe, and bring this together with the focus on data, with the focus on the digital, with the China’s speed, I think you could really lead the world in everything. So we're trying to get inspired by China, other parts of our business. But I think China can also be inspired by a lot of things that are happening outside to make the advertising, the brand building even stronger there. So I think it's a mutual symbiosis there.